Oversized pistons affecting compression ratio

The only differance between the flat4 and the axis is the pistons (if it is a closed deck from flat4) with $1000 difference, yet you can buy the axis pistons with rings for $650. Am i being tight fisted or does it make a saving?!

 

If it is a CDB with oil squirters then yes I agree it seems cheaper, but then you would have to bore and hone the block to fit forged pistons.

Andrew...

 

Blocks o plenty! Think im gunna put all the names in a hat and go with the first one i pull out.

 

True enough Andrew, slipped my mind!

You can really see the difference in the blocks between closed and semi closed. Can you run the fully closed without issues, water temps!

 

I don see why water temps should be an issue so long as cylinder temps are kept in check and the oil squirters on the EJ22T helps with this.

I didn think COBB did 2.2 blocks they used to only do stroked 2.0s.

Andrew...

 

Just sent an email to axis asking how much the Stage 1 Motor would be with either Pauter or Oliver rods. If he only charges what the bits cost to buy ($699-$799) then i make it to be just under £1800 before all the tax and duty for a brand spanking 2.2 litre, fully closed deck with forged pistons and rods, sounds good when you list the spec.

 

Sounds good, may even be cheaper if they are using new rods in the Stage1 as they should knock the price of these off.

Andrew...

 

Indeed, how much are standard rods in the states these days?!

 

Im turning into the fast show character that agrees with every opposing argument in the pub and keeps changing his mind: http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/showthread.p ... ge=2&pp=20 perhaps a stock USDM 2.5 short motors is not such a bad bet after all (reading John Banks and Mark Aigins comments).

Andrew...

 

I still think that the first thing John needs to do is to decide his ultimate goal. There are several different ways of arriving at similar destinations. To start with what are you doing gearbox wise?

US 2.5 short blocks are a cheap way of getting 400bhp but only 7500rpm. To get more power/revs means doing the internals, which, on such a new engine and with only american manufacturers (call me biased but American engineering is usually carp) is going to be an expensive route.

A 2.0 CDB with new internals will make (and has on many occasions) big bhp and "relatively" cheaply. It won make 400bhp as nicely as a bigger capacity motor, but the 8200rpm will be no problem. Don forget some work will be required to get CR correct as you are matching phase 1 to phase 2 heads.

A 2.0 ODB with internals. Many people have now extracted good power from ODBs (but there have been many failures aswell) This will be an easier route than CDB, and cheaper too.

2.2/2.35/2.4 re-sleeved US block, not really sure on price (but can imagine its gonna be cheap) these are fairly new to the market, do you wanna be the guinea pig? And again it is all american engineering.

2.2 CDB with internals, slightly more expensive than 2.0 CDB as you are limited choices when it comes to pistons. And a fair bit of work (money) is involved when it comes to getting your CR, as again it is matching phase 1 and 2. But due to Closed decking and piston squirters it will take 400bhp/8200rpm without breaking a sweat. (is this the only subaru block to feature piston squirtes?)

2.35 re-sleeved and stroked 2.2 ODB. As above, but even bigger money due to machining work, limited piston availability etc...

Can get on Axis web site, somebody tell me whats available please.

For me it was pretty obvious, but i was chasing 500bhp, and doing all the work myself.

oh and water temps aren an issue with CDB

 

I thought Johns target was 400bhp?

Axis info from the I-Club posting:

Code:

Stage 1 Motor $2,349.99
- 2.2 Liter Fully Closed Deck Shortblock
- Standard Sleeve Liners
- Piston Squirters
- Standard Forged 2.2 Crankshaft
- Stock 2.2 Connecting Rods
- Axis Racing/CP Forged Pistons (8.5:1 CR)
- 7500 Rev Limit Recommended


Stage 2 Motor $2,399.99
- 2.5 L STi Semi-Closed Deck Shortblock
- Standard Sleeve Liners
- Standard 2.5L STi Forged Crankshaft
- Standard 2.5L STi Forged Connecting Rods
- Axis Racing/CP Forged Pistons
- 7500 Rev Limit Recommended


Stage 3 Motor $3,549.99
- 2.5 L STi Semi-Closed Deck Shortblock
- Stock Sleeve Liners
- Modified Axis Racing Forged Crankshaft
- Pauter 4340 Chrome-Moly Forged Rods 
- Axis Racing/CP Forged Pistons
- 8000 Rev Limit Recommended


Stage 4 Motor $3,699.99
- 2.2 Liter Fully Closed Deck Shortblock
- Piston Squirters
- Stock Steel Sleeve Liners
- Modified Axis Racing Forged Crankshaft
- Pauter 4340 Chrome-Moly Forged Rods
- Axis Racing/CP forged pistons (8.5:1 or 9:1)
- 8500 RPM Rev Limit


Stage 5 Motor $6,049.99
- 2.5L USDM STi Semi-Closed Deck Case
- Axis Racing/Darton Ductile Iron Sleeves
- Axis Racing/CP forged Pistons
- Pauter 4340 Chrome-Moly Forged Rods
- Modified Axis Racing Crankshaft
- Larger ARP head studs
- Cometic Head Gaskets
- 2.5 liter Final Displacement
- 9000 RPM Rev Limit

Andrew...

 

Cheers, like you said tho, don understand the rev limit on the 2.2 CDB, isn stock 22B rev limit 8200?? Are these US prices? If so then they are very cheap, stage 1 motor works out at around £1300 !! What price is a 2.2 CDB over here? I paid £1000 for used short block with stock internals. Do they say what their "modified crankshaft" actually is?

 

Mark has reconditioned 2.2 CDBs (bare block) for £600+Vat, but they are much more plentiful in the US.

There used to be some info about their cranks on the Axis website but this is being rebuilt at the moment so I can check, I think it is lightened and balanced to something like 11000RPM and hardened in some way (not nitrided IIRC).

I know what you mean about American engineering but CP/Ross/JE pistons and Pauter/Oliver/Eagle rods seem to becoming reputable, at least on a PAR with the australian stuff (parden the pun).

Itll be interesting to see what price they come back with for the stage 1 with uprated rods, I think it should be competitive.

I note that they can supply pistons for different crs so it would be interesting to see if they know what gaskets should be used with which heads to maintain those ratios.

Andrew...

 

Cord, as Andrew said i would like a reliable 400bhp, no more than that. As for the gearbox i plan to get the syncrhos sorted and possibly put a longer 5th gear in. For the target power im going to stick with mine and see how it copes, would imagine it to be ok.

I got a reply from Ronald of Axis this morning:

<b>John,

Its actually not the rods holding it back, but the
factory crank. If you are already considering the
rods, it would be better for you to just get the stg 4
motor. You would get 8500rpm capability and an engine
that runs very smooth right up to the redline.

Not trying to upsell, but if you are already thinking
rods, then why not the crank too? It would be the
last engine you would have to purchase for a while.

Ron</b>

As you can see he hasnt give a price for what i asked and states its the standard crank that is the limiting factor?! I cant see that myself. Hmmmm,not trying to upsell?

 

Hmmm, so if the std crank and rods are good for 8200rpm in all STIs after V3 including the 22B then why isn it good for it in the Axis motor with probably lighter pistons.

Mind you a lot of STIs and (virtually all) 22Bs seem to have bottom end failures so perhaps he has a point?

As you have already made contact, could you ask him what they do to the crank and what bearings they use?

Andrew...

 

Will do.

 

Ha ha ha nice bit of hard sell there!!!!

"runs very smooth right upto the redline" Hmmm not sure what aspects of a stock crank would prevent this, seems he is keen on selling you stuff that i don think you need. Have you all the neccessary parts to support 400bhp? injectors, pump, managment etc..

Andrew less bad jokes please!!!!! []
I wouldn use JE pistons (and they are meant to be the best of the yank stuff) Eagle rods are just about fit to wedge a door open with. PAR rods have been proven to be strong, but aren a patch on Arrow or Crower rods (My engine has PAR rods but only due to lack of knowledge of Crower, and lack of availability of Arrow) But they do seem cheap.

Have you priced up all parts for a 2.2 CDB (seems to be looking the favourite) from uk suppliers?

 

At 400bhp i don think your box will last long, what is the cost of the work you have mentioned, personally, I would put that money into a 6 speed.

Also if you are only aiming for 400bhp why not just use a phase 2 ODB built with stock crank and uprated rods and pistons? The cost will be significantly lower than that of going the 2.2 route. Remember if you are going to a phase 1 block, you will need to buy many parts to get it to work with phase 2 heads.

For starters you will have to get, head gaskets slightly more expensive than EJ20 and available in a lot less variations. Cambelt tensioner and pulleys. Water crossover pipe, which in turn means that turbo will not fit in stock position under the maniflod. So that means clocked turbo with new, up/down pipes, custom intercooler piping, custom oil/water feed and returns. Speaking of turbo, what turbo are you going to use? Are you aware that running a big end means that lots of metal particles will have gone through your engine potentially scrapping lots of items? e.g. Heat exchanger, oil pump, turbo core.

OUCH this is getting expensive!!! Sorry if I am p1ssing on your chips, but you need to think of absolutely everything before you start wading in to buying stuff. You could easily be left with lots of lovely shiney bits, and not enough money to get all the little bits needed to bolt it all together.

 

Not sure about all the things you need to do re. ph.2 heads on a ph.1 block, plenty of people have done this now without having to rotate the turbo. Whilst you may need the water crossover pipe from a ph.1 it will still allow a front entry turbo with the inlet under the manifold. I would change the cambelt tensioner anyway if rebuilding a ph.2 and they are significantly cheaper/more reliable on ph.1 engines.

John is aware of changing the oil pump and oil/water heat exchanger after a bottom end failure, not sure about the turbo core but a different turbo is on the cards anyway. Do you know anything about the alleged difference in the Legacy 2.2 turbo oil pump?

The cost of building a Ph.1 2.2 CDB to the spec of the Axis Stage 1 unit in the UK would easily come to more than £2000 in parts alone []

I haven seen enough aftermarket rods/pistons to be able to comment, although the Ross pistons and Oliver rods that ProSport use in their rally cars are very nicely finished and Pete reckons they never have to touch them balance wise.

Andrew...

PS. I don know if you are aware but the reason I am so interested in all this is that I want to build a 2.2CDB for my MY98 and had been talking to John about it even before his engine failed.

 

Cord, understand what your saying mate and i dont expect it to come cheaply. Already have uprated fuel pump and regulator, Link ECU, FMIC, 3" system etc. Still need injectors. better induction kit (not happy with the HKS) and obviously a working block with uprated oil pump and new heat exchanger as you say.

Still havent touched the car since it happened (been off work with the flu all week) so dont know the extent of the damage, could be minimal! Still a lot to do before anything is purchased so im not jumping in at the deepend just yet.

As Andrew stated the cost of building a 2.0 litre block up with uprated internals will no doubt be more expensive than some of the other options available, still early days though, like i said need to check mine out first.

Received a reply from Ronald this morning:

<b>I use a standard crank, but redrill it for optimum
oiling, then balance and polish it. I continue to use
the factory bearings as they are not the problem. The
main reason for big end failures is the lack of oiling
at higher rpms. At some point over 7300rpms, the oil
can not "push" itself out of the oiling holes in the
crank and the rotaional force of higher rpms works
against the pump and does not let the oil sling itself
out onto the bearings. So, I drill a few more holes
in strategic locations and it has seemed to fix the
problem. You will also need an uprated oil pump which
I sell for $135. I have over 50 engines out there
with the new designed crank and not one failure.
The other main reason I suggest such a low rpm on
stock cranks is they are not balanced very well.

Any other questions let me know.

Ron</b>


Stock cranks not balanced very well?!