Ok so I'm going to open a can of worms here but it's my genuine thought andi wondered if anyone agrees I've just watched the news ( waiting for emmerdale) about a doctor who is one if the uk's tip surgeons that had gone over to Syria to help out. Don't get me wrong that's great but why is he not here, in the uk, working on shortening the waiting lists for people in the uk, helping the many sick people in the uk. Why does he have to go to Syria, why are we loosing a top surgeon and probably many others. In my mind he should be here helping in this country
In this country there are strict working hours rules for people in his position or he may be taking a sabbatical to do something he really wants to do, he may be there on a teaching mission trying to raise the standard of surgeons there, there's countless reasons.
You would be better asking why when we spend hundreds of thousands training each doctor and dentist, do we then allow so many of them to spend (in the case of many hospital consultants) half a week or more working for private hospitals (who haven't paid a penny to train them), or in the case of dentists allow most of them to immediately skip off to private practice and abandon the organisation that gave them their qualifications (not to mention all those people on NHS dentist waiting lists). Of course, the largest ratio of doctors to the general population anywhere in the world is in Cuba, and as a result their government pays for around 50,000 at any one time to go out and work in poor countries for a period - so the slightly bigger question is why can't we have a nationalised health service that is as good as the Cuban one? Meanwhile if anyone in any occupation wants to take unpaid leave of absence from their job to do voluntary work overseas good on them. The alternative I guess is to re-introduce serfdom or slavery and stop anyone going anywhere, but personally I don't think that is a realistic answer to NHS waiting lists, do you?
i heard a story about people who spend 5 or 10 years of their lives training to be a doctor and then not being able to get a job in uk when qualified. and as for why as he gone to syria.. maybe he just wants to try make a difference in the sad world we live in. and who pays hundreds of thousands to train doctors here? new doctors etc have to pay off student loans etc. which they had to take whilst training/studying also mum n dad might of paid like 15,000.00 a term to send them to private college
Great second post to make on a Subaru forum there. Why don't you poke off to Cuba then? Your post about doctors and dentists is so far wide of the mark that I find it offensive even by keyboard warrior standards.
Lol @ Richard ! I just think that we need the doctors in the uk, we seam to be recruiting loads from overseas as there isn't enough in the uk, then one buggers off to help in another country, he should be helping here in my eyes ! Richard please don't bugger off to some other country, It will get expensive going to the dentist for me then !
why dont you set us straight about dentists then??? instead of coming on with ur sarcastic clever **** attitude once again.. talk about keyboard warriors. if the guy wants to voice his opinion about dentists/doctors doesent give u the right to make him feel unwelcome just because its not "subaru" related and you are a "dentist" id be quite glad to see you poke off to cuba someone ask me if i hate dentists!
Yes John, can of worms opened and all the bottom feeders have come to have a nibble, here's another one. So "St3vo" you hate dentists, good for you... the person who bangs on about hating dentists all the time, what a thing to be known by. I think that's the third time I've seen you spout snide comments in my direction because of my job. You actually don't know what I do or have done, you've never sat in my chair and you've never been on the end of my work. Yet you still keep banging on about me as if I fit some warped stereotype that you have in your bitter little mind. Maybe it's because people on your level run out of things to say and have to repeat themselves. You've never even met me but I think it's great that you give yourself an identity in that way. I personally hate car owners who feel the need to put Subaru graphics down the side of their car, which is invariably a lower model such as a 2.0 sport or a WRX. It really gives Subaru drivers a bad image. I also hate people who can't be bothered to use their keyboard to punctuate properly because it makes a mockery of our beautiful language, and the effort some of us make to appear educated. You also do not tell me what I can and cannot do on here, that is for admin. I think I do have the right to make someone feel unwelcome if I disagree with their views, in the same way you attempt to make ME feel unwelcome and bang on about disliking me because of my job. Except, in this case I've actually got an opinion on it because I am employed by the National Health, have worked as a hospital doctor and a dentist and just about every statement he's made there is totally incorrect. I'm also from a family where we cover just about every specialty of medical healthcare so I think I know what I'm talking about. So if I find it insulting to my profession then I have whatever right I want to criticise it and say what I think. Despite your hostility I'll answer every point, as requested. "we spend hundreds of thousands training each doctor and dentist" Yes, we do and while these doctors and dentists are undergraduates they treat these things called patients. And amazingly, a significant proportion of the training budget goes on that treatment. Then, when we qualify, we work for the NHS. And if we're training still, we treat patients. And that's where most of the budget goes. Both doctors and dentists in this country have to do postgraduate training, in the case of dentists it is theoretically one year and with doctors it is theoretically two. But in practice it is far more than that. "why... do we then allow so many of them to spend (in the case of many hospital consultants) half a week or more working for private hospitals" Ahh, more nonsense. Hospital consultants generally find themselves tied down to long on call rotas and numerous sessions that on a simple time basis prohibit working privately unless it is done out of their own free time. Which considering they will need to work a lot in their free time to keep up to date with admin and necessary work to keep up to date, is not that much free time. With increasing amounts of paperwork admin sessions that were in the past used to perform private work are now having to be dedicated to audit and other forms of governance. A small group of very highly specialised groups in niche fields may find themselves working on a more exclusively private basis but this is on the whole, compared to the number of consultants a very small number. They tend to be surgeons of great repute in the latter years of their careers and typically focus on performing a handful of niche procedures. "(who haven't paid a penny to train them)" Why would a private hospital wish to train the very highly trained surgeons it specifically advertises to come and work for them? They provide a place of work, the surgeons come and work there. Pretty black and white. Many businesses these days will train staff in local procedures but very few fund basic qualifications outside of apprentice schemes and the like. Quite why it is implied a private hospital is bad for not spending hundreds of thousands of pounds training surgeons over a period of decades is mystifying. "or in the case of dentists allow most of them to immediately skip off to private practice" Absolute crap. What point are you trying to make by suggesting something so incorrect? Nearly 70% of all dentists' time is spent on NHS treatment in this country. Most of that remaining 30-odd percent is private because the treatment people want is either not available or because the funding is not there to finance the treatment. I'll elaborate on this point later. In order to work as a dentist in the UK you have to undergo five or six years of training as an undergraduate. You then have to perform a year of NHS work as a Vocational Trainee. Most people decide at the end of their VT year in practice to continue as a second year vocational trainee or enter a post preparing them for specialist training (through a deanery). Usually by this point you have already spent six years (the first year of dental school is basically heavy academia) treating hundreds of patients and the vast majority of the money spent training you has actually been spent on patient care (as it is in medicine too by the way). It is theoretically possible from this point to enter exclusively private practice straight after VT1 or VT2 but with an emphasis on specialisation in the field (e.g orthodontics, implants) you will be highly unlikely to find employment unless you do further training - which you either have to fund yourself to the tune of around £12,000 a year or go through an approved training scheme with a deanery (yep, NHS). So all these "private" dentists that are heavily criticised have actually made huge sacrifices to get to where they've got to and invariably have put in a fair old shift to get there. Usually by working through a hospital system and giving one hell of a lot along the way. "and abandon the organisation that gave them their qualifications" This level of poor understanding generally sums up the post. I was awarded my main qualification by Manchester University (which I went significantly into debt to train at) and the other was the Royal College of Surgeons of Edinburgh, which was self-financed also. I'm registered also with my professional governing body, which has nothing to do with the NHS. I pay them lots of money each year to write me threatening letters about abiding to a set of standards expected of me. That if I fail to meet will threaten my ability to practice. I am in fact employed by the NHS. I have treated NHS patients since I was a student, I treated them when I was training in head and neck surgery and I now treat them in practice, where I reside. Most of the money that flows by me goes on their treatment, it always has and most likely always will. "Of course, the largest ratio of doctors to the general population anywhere in the world is in Cuba" Ah yes, that incredible example to us all of how a country should be run. Everything failing and nothing working. "and as a result their government pays for around 50,000 at any one time to go out and work in poor countries for a period" It's quite easy to pay for lots of people to do things when the state pays you $50 a month to work. And it's illegal to earn any more than that. "so the slightly bigger question is why can't we have a nationalised health service that is as good as the Cuban one?" Are you a communist or something? Our National Health System is the envy of the world. It has failings that are to be expected with any large system in place in a country with the structure ours has but generally we lead the way in terms of free-for-all healthcare. Cuba loves to portray itself as a leading light in terms of healthcare but unfortunately stupid people love to believe things that incredibly trustworthy Cuban governments tell them. In some surgical specialties (such as for example obstetrics), Cuba has excellent rates that match some of the private systems in the rich European countries. However, it cannot afford medicines and anaesthetics so if you have something such as common-or-garden septicaemia or need some antidepressive medications - or God forbid some chemotherapy you are fooked. "Meanwhile if anyone in any occupation wants to take unpaid leave of absence from their job to do voluntary work overseas good on them." Yep, bravo to that. Except that's what they already do. Occasionally during training it is a good idea to do voluntary work. It's great because it provides hands-on experience, allows someone to give something back for their training and furthermore develop in ways outside of their clinical duties. It plumps up CVs, allows reflection and helps achieve aims in portfolios of evidence and personal development plans. It also allows treatment to be carried out beyond the confines of the NHS but the experience gained is often positive when it comes to returning and performing procedures (on the NHS). These are often short departures when on-call commitments can be covered by other members of staff and tend to be used up as part of a study leave allowance that is set. Often however, because of the way it is done it invariably ends up eating into annual leave. Equipment, flights, medications and other basics are usually self-funded. The idea that people just swan off to places like Syria and abandon their duties here is quite frankly ludicrous - especially at a time when expenses in hospitals are under a microscope by increasingly aggressive management teams acting under instruction of a government trying to reign spending in as much as possible. That's hospital by the way. If I take leave in practice I don't get paid. So when I pop over to Africa with these people, it'll be totally self funded. http://www.dentalmavericks.org/ "The alternative I guess is to re-introduce serfdom or slavery and stop anyone going anywhere" Now that is funny from someone who supports Cuba. "but personally I don't think that is a realistic answer to NHS waiting lists, do you?" Well I guess it would be a great idea if you threw an unlimited budget at hospitals and forced all the surgeons to work continually. STUPID ALERT. The system is not black and white. I mean seriously, you don't even have a clue about having an idea. let alone understanding what is involved in running any kind of clinical service. Waiting lists are not in any way linked to a couple of doctors flying out to Syria. It's not even related to doctors having holidays, sick leave or even training and doing exams and administrative work (of which there is more and more creeping in). It wouldn't even be linked if each doctor in the hospital decided to take three months of the year off. It's down to funding. No money = no procedures. It's simple. You could employ thousands more doctors, but if there's no free theatres, no beds in the hospital to put the patients in and not enough dorrah then it's all a bit hopeless really. NHS dentistry has seen funding massively cut, that was a long time after Opticians were hit very hard also. Hospital is the next step, if the funds aren't there then delay the treatment. Some procedures aren't even carried out anymore! I said I'd elaborate on a point earlier. Before 2006 any dentist could set up a practice and perform NHS dentistry. All treatment was funded and there was no limit to the amount of work that could be done. After then, the government introduced a system that gave dentists a budget allocation and limited the amount of work they could do. People that need lots of work doing use up lots of points, and people that look after themselves use up very few. These points are known as "Units of Dental Activity". This limit on dental activity is FORCING dentists to carry out private work. If the funding is not there then you'll be hard pushed to find someone that will pay out of their own pocket the prices needed to fix the problem. As the NHS part funds treatment if you want it done you'll have to foot the bill yourself. And the way it all works, taking a simple filling as an example, the NHS can give as high as £100 as the budget to carry out that treatment, even though the patient will pay £49. So to meet the costs and maintain a margin, if you cannot get an NHS place you'll be paying £100 for the filling. Dentistry will inevitably go private in the future. It will be good for some people and terrible for others. I could go on for hours. I'm off to argue the toss with Brian about how I think he should build engines because I don't have the first idea about anything to do with it, but I'm allowed my opinion. Want an opinion? Go and learn something about it first before spouting crap. Maybe I'll be more welcoming.
this is y i love the sump on the forum its full of crap like this and this needs to be locked before the shops have no dummys left .. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
John you've well and truly lit the blue touch paper there pal, I've just used 6% of my phone battery reading that it's a good insight as to what the medical profession go through to reach the level they are at, much respect :wink:
I'm sorry if I've come across as unreasonable as I'm a mild mannered and slow to anger person. I've actually asked the mods to move this to the sump or even consider deleting this thread. I was really mad when I typed that above post. Healthcare professionals are generally well paid but there is a low ceiling to the pay structure compared to other avenues of business. Accusations that we are more interested in private work is plain offensive. I'm fed up of the general snide attitudes of some folk who sit behind a keyboard and type garbage like that. Want to be a hero, go and do something about it. Most of my patients respect the work I put in and I try hard to give them everything that's available. I swore an oath to provide the highest standard of care that I can deliver and most of us go to those levels. Got a problem with dentists? Well good for you the only person that's hurting it you. Having a pop at me on here because you don't like me has absolutely nothing to do with the dental profession and dentists as a whole. But I have more of a problem with people who feel the need, without any basis or facts whatsoever to pick holes in the good work of people who dedicate their lives to the jobs they do. For all I have achieved in my career so far I have spent nights crying my eyes out for the stress that I've encountered and part of the reason I did not stay in hospital. I'm sure other jobs and professions are the same and the stresses in some are worse, but the majority of us go through hell at times to deliver our work.
Richard I respect the work you do ! I also respect the fact your still in the uk doing it.!!!!!!!!!!!
Hmmm :roll: I'm actually proud of my lower end model 2003 WRX with the swoosh graphics and the 350 horse power it produces, sorry if it gives other enthusiasts a bad reputation but I like it/them. I wish i could afford a Cosworth so I could really show off to all the bottom feeders out there. Just because you are a dentist and I am a stonemason and you have a Cosworth and i have a WRX definitely doesn't make you anymore dignified than me. I love you really Richard and when I bump into you at a future meet I'm gonna give you a big kiss.
If you want to be nice to me then fair enough but if not I'd rather our paths don't cross thanks very much. For the record I've got little against WRX owners. But hating on them for owning a WRX is exactly the same as hating on me because of a qualification I have especially when you've never even met me. And my Cosworth is a mildly tweaked boggo STi with a forged engine. It's a great car but I'm hardly part of an elite for owning one of the most hated and critically maligned special editions.
For the record I think anyone that hasn't got a 10 second run under there belt is not worthy and it pains me to even talk to them.........
